Minor pet peeve, how hard it is to understand the difference between a fascist and a socialist? You'd think how often people mention Hitler and Nazis in online conversation most people would know the difference by now.Interestingly, I did once meet a man who was both a Trotskyist and a John Bircher. He was fucking insane in so many ways.
montrith, April 02, 2013, 01:04:54 pm
Anywhere not arizona: Hey, at least it isn't Arizona!
Runic, April 02, 2013, 03:06:45 pm
Connecticut gun bill
Background checks on all gun sales
Extends assault weapons ban to include 100 new types of firearm
clips of 10 rounds or more must be registered
Creates the first state registry of dangerous weapon offenders
Creates an "ammunition eligibility" certificate
Gun restrictions for people previously admitted to mental health facilities
State grants for school safety improvements
Some good news on Connecticut, however; Al, April 02, 2013, 06:31:17 pm
Some good news on Connecticut, however; Al, April 02, 2013, 06:31:17 pm
I'd say mixed news at best. Banning guns? Registering clips? Ammunition eligibility certificate? None of that is going to prevent shit.
Criminals buy their guns illegally. The Newtown shooter stole the gun he used from his mother. I suppose they could try to pass some hilarious secure-your-gun legislation which would be completely unenforceable, but the problem here is that people are still thinking that this shit could be avoided if we only figure out what law will prevent it.
I mean, it's already pretty illegal to murder somebody, and not just with a gun, and yet it keeps happening.
Isfahan, April 02, 2013, 06:45:27 pm
I dunno I always thought education was a good way at least, to help prevent accidental gun deaths between children. I grew up in rural PA and even though my dad is an insane gun nut, he at least taught me that guns are a powerful and dangerous tool. And that by learning about guns and how they should be properly handled and such makes you get a healthy fear of using it so you don't start playing around with guns. I'm not saying teach kids how to shoot guns XD I mean at least a lesson on it on why it's dangerous and why you shouldn't mess with a gun. And also educate parents on how to properly store their guns in a secure gun safe with a lock and NOT LEAVE THEM AROUND THE FREAKING HOUSE LIKE MY BROTHER. Something to that extent?Keetah Spacecat, April 02, 2013, 07:34:30 pm
I'd say mixed news at best. Banning guns? Registering clips? Ammunition eligibility certificate? None of that is going to prevent shit.
Criminals buy their guns illegally. The Newtown shooter stole the gun he used from his mother. I suppose they could try to pass some hilarious secure-your-gun legislation which would be completely unenforceable, but the problem here is that people are still thinking that this shit could be avoided if we only figure out what law will prevent it.
I mean, it's already pretty illegal to murder somebody, and not just with a gun, and yet it keeps happening.
Isfahan, April 02, 2013, 06:45:27 pm
Criminals buy their guns illegally. The Newtown shooter stole the gun he used from his mother. Isfahan, April 02, 2013, 06:45:27 pmThe second sentence is a direct refutation of the first. What if it had been illegal for his mother to buy it? Where would he have gotten it then?
The second sentence is a direct refutation of the first. What if it had been illegal for his mother to buy it? Where would he have gotten it then?Victor Laszlo, April 02, 2013, 08:53:53 pm
We aren't talking about "criminals" in the sense of Vincent and Jules from Pulp Fiction, we're talking about mentally ill white kids mostly. Do you think they have the money and connections to buy a pile of assault rifles from the cartel?
Part of the intent of restrictive laws is to slowly, like over a generation, reduce this country's collective boner for guns. There really is little justification for private gun ownership. Hunting I suppose, and home defense depending on where you live, but neither of those requires automatic firing and 30-round clips. Really, what legitimate non-boner reason could you possibly have for owning an M-16?
As far as the armed guards in schools bit, I wonder if anyone at the NRA think tank considered whether a high school student would be smart enough to locate the old guy in the USS Ticonderoga hat with the bulge under his jacket and just shoot him first. Hey look, free gun!
If we lose gun rights, we will never ever get them back. Never. Not ever. Zero percent chance. Isfahan, April 03, 2013, 02:07:27 amThat does sound nice.
The second amendment is in place so that the people can violently oppose their government if need be.You of all people should know better than to trot this one out. I know that you know better than to believe that a pile of rednecks with AR-15s have the ability to violently oppose their government in any way that doesn't end in tragedy. Their government also has assault weapons, along with tanks, fighter jets, nuclear weapons and an unlimited supply of money to acquire more of all of these. This is a bullshit argument and has been ever since we decided to go from ad hoc militias to a standing army. The 2nd amendment specifically allows the right to keep and bear arms so that when you were called up to join the military you would show up with your rifle. There is no meaning to that today since you are issued a rifle when you are called up. I think the hunting argument is silly too, but a lot of people like hunting and generally you don't hear about schools being shot up by hunting rifles so I'm willing to shrug my shoulders and let people sit in a tree all day hoping a deer wanders by because they aren't really hurting anybody by doing it.
That gun wasn't bought illegally, and it wasn't bought by a criminal. I mean, what if the kid had no hands? How would he have pulled the trigger? Thinking up mitigating circumstances and then trying to wring a law out of them is exactly what people are trying to do.This is the entire point. A gun capable of murdering 30 kindergarteners in a small amount of time was purchased legally. If you think that's okay then we are starting pretty far apart. Had that gun not been legally for sale then the specific tragedy in question would have had a harder time occurring. Which is something some of us find desirable. He could have gone in there with pistols, but odds are he wouldn't have clipped 30 kids before someone tackled him. We can't prevent all shootings, but we can probably significantly reduce the number of mass casualty events that take place, and that is a worthy goal to me if only because if someone brought 30 shot-up kindergarteners into my ER I would probably develop an incurable drinking problem and I don't want that to happen.
The world is not a place where you can pretend your safety will always be assured with no effort on your own part. The fact that you think even an appreciable fraction of the guns in private ownership are configured for fully-automatic fire is telling, as is calling clips "clips."Sorry I'm not up on the gun lingo. It doesn't come up in my day to day life all that much.
Because of the 1986 manufacture-and-transfer law it's already quite prohibitively expensive to own a fully-automatic or select-fire firearm.And they're a small percentage of privately-owned guns? You're right, gun laws are a total failure.
[heart] [heart!]
Am I pissing into the wind here? Do I need to start chasing people around with all-caps screeds to get a point across?This is America, Jack. We don't argue from evidence here. We just talk louder and louder until someone says "fuck it" and storms off to get drunk. Or drunker, since these sorts of debates tend to start after we're drunk in the first place.
ONE MORE TIME THEN: The argument that "restricted guns may or may not have an impact on US crime," can be put the fuckin' crucible of science: Canada, the country most like the US, has restricted gun laws. DO THEY HAVE REDUCED GUN CRIMES? Gee guys, why don't you find out from sources you trust and get back to me on this one? Can I make it more obvious?
Acierocolotl, April 03, 2013, 11:59:07 am
This is America, Jack. We don't argue from evidence here. We just talk louder and louder until someone says "fuck it" and storms off to get drunk. Or drunker, since these sorts of debates tend to start after we're drunk in the first place.
Victor Laszlo, April 03, 2013, 12:29:11 pm
In Switzerland, everyone is required to own a gun and (until recently, I believe) soldiers were allowed to keep relatively powerful weapons from their time in service.You may want to check your sources on this.
Al, April 03, 2013, 12:40:46 pm
You of all people should know better than to trot this one out. I know that you know better than to believe that a pile of rednecks with AR-15s have the ability to violently oppose their government in any way that doesn't end in tragedy.Victor Laszlo, April 03, 2013, 11:41:26 am
This is the entire point. A gun capable of murdering 30 kindergarteners in a small amount of time was purchased legally. If you think that's okay then we are starting pretty far apart. Had that gun not been legally for sale then the specific tragedy in question would have had a harder time occurring. Which is something some of us find desirable. He could have gone in there with pistols, but odds are he wouldn't have clipped 30 kids before someone tackled him. We can't prevent all shootings, but we can probably significantly reduce the number of mass casualty events that take place, and that is a worthy goal to me if only because if someone brought 30 shot-up kindergarteners into my ER I would probably develop an incurable drinking problem and I don't want that to happen.
You're right, gun laws are a total failure.
When was the last time, in a non-military setting, you fired a gun with a 30-round clip to assure your own safety? In that setting, would a .38 special have done the trick, or did you need all thirty bullets to be fired within a few seconds without taking time to reload?
The bottom line is that I'm allowed to own what I own, and I'm breaking no laws in doing so. If I go to sleep on a given night and wake up the next morning as a criminal, it will have been because someone first took a wide black marker to the Bill of Rights and decided I couldn't be trusted.
Oh, it's not YOU we don't trust. It's this guy.
[that wonderful picture]
montrith, April 03, 2013, 03:58:49 pm
In Switzerland, everyone is required to own a gun and (until recently, I believe) soldiers were allowed to keep relatively powerful weapons from their time in service.You may want to check your sources on this.
Al, April 03, 2013, 12:40:46 pm
Boots Raingear, April 03, 2013, 01:26:15 pm
If I may offer a different perspective here, I do find the idea of "We need guns to protect us from our government" completely strange.montrith, April 03, 2013, 03:58:49 pm
isfahan, how do you feel about gun dealers tracking who/where/when they sell a gun? like, not a searchable database for public use, but at least a public record for where guns are. like how you gotta register a car, and cops/dealers only access it when they have good cause to.icarus, April 03, 2013, 06:36:37 pm
cause from my point of view, it'd cut down on stuff like stolen gun sales. car registration helped some with car theft. i mean it's still there, but it's less of a rampant issue. and moreso, you don't wind up with like shady guys who have clean records but buy guns to resell them illegally to people who DON'T have clean records. like say some dude has a tiny apartment but winds up registering 700 semi-automatic rifles to it. he's probably not living with all 700 of them in his tiny place. it'd seem kinda worth looking into, right?
i know some people get really like AAAAAA about the idea of keeping more careful track of gun sales, but i'm kinda head-scratching as to why. it wouldn't be preventing you from buying a new gun, or preventing anyone from selling you a gun. is it just about government being in personal business?
The thing is, nobody is talking about gun confiscation. There is zero political support for an all out gun ban, even post Newtown. That is simply a strawman. Americans, in general, don't want to ban guns outright. That's not the policy that is being discussed, and given the constitutional protections in place I seriously doubt that banning of things like high capacity mags, or even semi-automatic rifles will really act as a slippery slope to it.
Runic, April 03, 2013, 07:22:35 pm
Oh, it's not YOU we don't trust. It's this guy.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DtYJxraBpT0/UQ90Bcf_F7I/AAAAAAAAFPg/AakrwRRABdg/s1600/Gun+Nut.jpg (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DtYJxraBpT0/UQ90Bcf_F7I/AAAAAAAAFPg/AakrwRRABdg/s1600/Gun+Nut.jpg) (inline image removed by Lemon)
montrith, April 03, 2013, 03:58:49 pm
how about local or state gun buyback programs?
i mean that seems pretty cut & dry, right? people willingly no longer desire their fire-arms, and so willingly give them up. they know they're going somewhere safe, to authorities who know how to handle them. do they bug you? do you think it'd be more fair if the government didn't offer the shelf price for the gun, and thus made it more of a serious choice for the owner or somethin?
i'm just thinkin of this because of the daily show segment, i'll be honest. the guy who stepped in with his local NRA-esque chapter and instigated a private buyback at higher prices WITHOUT checking backgrounds/exchanging licenses/whatever other normal red tape there is really kinda pissed me off. just the fact that he was like YEAH I REALLY STUCK IT TO THOSE DAMN GUN STEALIN GUMMINT MONSTERS :O NOW THOSE GUNS HAVE DISAPPEARED BACK INTO THE COMMUNITY WITHOUT ANY ABILITY TO TRACE THEM THE WORLD IS SURELY A SAFER PLACE HERALD ME AS YOUR NEW HERO and i'm sitting there going arg anyone could have bought those guns arg arrrrrrg no safety checks at all arrrrrrggggg
icarus, April 03, 2013, 07:56:04 pm
Fair enough.The thing is, nobody is talking about gun confiscation. There is zero political support for an all out gun ban, even post Newtown. That is simply a strawman. Americans, in general, don't want to ban guns outright. That's not the policy that is being discussed, and given the constitutional protections in place I seriously doubt that banning of things like high capacity mags, or even semi-automatic rifles will really act as a slippery slope to it.
Runic, April 03, 2013, 07:22:35 pm
I was simply explaining why some gun owners wouldn't get behind registration. They perceive it's the first step which will eventually lead to confiscation. I made no claims as to its likelihood, and I even pointed out how infeasible it would be to actually carry out. They're just the fears some gun owners have, founded or not.
Isfahan, April 03, 2013, 07:34:17 pm
The second sentence is a direct refutation of the first. What if it had been illegal for his mother to buy it? Where would he have gotten it then?Victor Laszlo, April 02, 2013, 08:53:53 pm
That gun wasn't bought illegally, and it wasn't bought by a criminal. I mean, what if the kid had no hands? How would he have pulled the trigger?Isfahan, April 03, 2013, 02:07:27 am
how about local or state gun buyback programs?icarus, April 03, 2013, 07:56:04 pm
I do not support banning all guns. I do support gun regulation. This opinion is based on purely what I know about the Finnish system and and applied in Finnish conditions. I know jack-all about legislation and political atmosphere in other countries, so I can't really provide an opinion when it comes to those.montrith, April 03, 2013, 09:34:05 pm
I still think education is still probably the best bet. Simply put it a good chunk of Americans have never seen a gun in real life. They only see it in movie theaters and shows where it's used to murder people. So of course they are going to turn around and freak out when a guy buys a bunch of ammo at once, even if he just wants to shoot some clay targets with his pals, because they think he's going to outright murder a whole bunch of people.Keetah Spacecat, April 04, 2013, 12:01:02 am
Still sometimes I wonder when people say they are using assault rifles to hunt with. It seems like it won't leave you very much left of the animal using one of those over a rifle.
Can't we all just get along?
Victor Laszlo, April 04, 2013, 08:50:31 am
Fuck thatCan't we all just get along?
Victor Laszlo, April 04, 2013, 08:50:31 am
Christ, I hope not. We're only on page 4 of this thread and already you're running out of vitriol?Lemon, April 04, 2013, 09:42:50 am
My ass is not boring!
montrith, April 04, 2013, 11:12:38 am
Fuck thatSeriously, nobody has even been compared to Hitler yet.Can't we all just get along?
Victor Laszlo, April 04, 2013, 08:50:31 am
Christ, I hope not. We're only on page 4 of this thread and already you're running out of vitriol? I started this thread for a reason, goddamn it. Get back in there.
Lemon, April 04, 2013, 09:42:50 am
If we didn't have shooting ranges, where would some people shoot their guns? I live in a state that doesn't have enough public land to shoot safely out in the wilderness, and that's also the reason it's illegal to hunt deer here with a normal rifle—you have to use either a shotgun or a muzzle-loader.
It's fine to not like guns and to not enjoy shooting. I think you're quite nice to agree to an activity you're not crazy about just to spend more time doing stuff with your friends. My mother is scared of guns too.
Isfahan, April 05, 2013, 04:50:27 am
If we didn't have shooting ranges, where would some people shoot their guns? I live in a state that doesn't have enough public land to shoot safely out in the wilderness, and that's also the reason it's illegal to hunt deer here with a normal rifle—you have to use either a shotgun or a muzzle-loader.
It's fine to not like guns and to not enjoy shooting. I think you're quite nice to agree to an activity you're not crazy about just to spend more time doing stuff with your friends. My mother is scared of guns too.
Isfahan, April 05, 2013, 04:50:27 am
This makes it sound like you dragged her to a shooting range yourself.
... you did, didn't you.
portaxx, April 05, 2013, 04:56:28 am
Well, if I'd my druthers, they wouldn't. But I don't, and so ranges fill that purpose nicely.kal-elk, April 05, 2013, 05:49:54 am
I'd be a lot happier if we just didn't have guns
Also, I'd be worried about people who weren't scared of guns!
Also, I'd be worried about people who weren't scared of guns! They're scary things.
kal-elk, April 05, 2013, 05:49:54 am
Worry about me, then.
Isfahan, April 05, 2013, 08:43:31 am
Also, I'd be worried about people who weren't scared of guns! They're scary things.
kal-elk, April 05, 2013, 05:49:54 am
Eh, I'm not scared of guns, and I've never fired one in my life. NRA nutjobs like Wayne LaPierre are disturbing, but not the guns themselves.
Now, knives, on the other hand -- those are scary.
Moriarty, April 05, 2013, 09:35:25 am
No, but seriously. Finland has a bit of a weird culture with knives. Like that it was completely normal when I got my first one when I was like 10 or something.
montrith, April 05, 2013, 01:12:54 pm
I'm borderbuddies with Russia though. Doesn't that make me a communist? Stalin maybe instead of Hitler?
montrith, May 01, 2013, 10:22:38 am
The AO Coltrane household here thinks Finland is pretty swank, so don't go around Godwinning things up or these barbarians from the north are gonna swoop down and start takin' over, eh?
Acierocolotl, May 01, 2013, 10:33:04 am
“When we see tragedy, Barack Obama and Michael Bloomberg see opportunity,” the gun group’s head lobbyist said. “While we pray for God to comfort those experiencing unimaginable pain ... they run to microphones.”