star wars thread

[Nikaer Drekin]

I think the problem for me is that LF keeps on trying to make Kylo Ren the next Darth Vader

They're really not, though; Kylo Ren is trying to make Kylo Ren the next Darth Vader. That's the point. The roles they play in the actual stories are vastly different. Vader's strength and slavish devotion to the dark side is what made him frightening, but the scariest thing about Kylo Ren is his unpredictability- it's almost impossible to know what he's going to do next. He's a supremely warped, confused, pathetic character, viciously angry but without any real sense of purpose or self control, desperate to achieve the level of power and certainty (he thinks) his grandfather had. And now this emotionally-stunted manchild is in charge of a fascist dictatorship. Trying to humanize a character and make him psychologically interesting doesn't mean Rian Johnson had a "hard-on" for him.

Off the top of my head, the only time someone actively does something with the force is the Jedi mind trick.

Captain Needa would disagree.

[Kaleidoscope]

I think the problem for me is that LF keeps on trying to make Kylo Ren the next Darth Vader

They're really not, though; Kylo Ren is trying to make Kylo Ren the next Darth Vader. That's the point. The roles they play in the actual stories are vastly different. Vader's strength and slavish devotion to the dark side is what made him frightening, but the scariest thing about Kylo Ren is his unpredictability- it's almost impossible to know what he's going to do next. He's a supremely warped, confused, pathetic character, viciously angry but without any real sense of purpose or self control, desperate to achieve the level of power and certainty (he thinks) his grandfather had. And now this emotionally-stunted manchild is in charge of a fascist dictatorship. Trying to humanize a character and make him psychologically interesting doesn't mean Rian Johnson had a "hard-on" for him.

The problem is that Johnson sacrifices other characters for Kylo’s development. There was zero reason to do that. If Rian wanted to make Kylo interesting, he didn’t have to ruin the characters of Rey and Luke to do so.

Rey get’s the worse because she’s falling into the trope of ‘I can save him’ which is an old trope that needs to die. Rey owes Kylo nothing and for Rey to suddenly want to save Kylo out of nowhere also doesn’t fit the narrative. Rey saw Kylo kill Han. Kylo also invaded and Kylo left Finn, a man Rey obviously cares about, for dead. Why would she suddenly want to save him? It’s barely been a day. That makes no sense and it’s just bad writing.

And the issue with humanizing a character like Kylo Ren is that he is literally a Nazi stand-in. JJ Abrams, who directed the first movie, openly stated that he based the FO off of Nazis. In this political climate, trying to humanize a character who is a literal space Nazi is a bad thing. Rian Johnson, apparently, didn’t get the memo. We also can’t really sympathize with Kylo because we have zero idea why he is the way he is. He was raised by two loving parents and was being taught by his uncle who cared about him so why is he like this? Was he abused? Did someone hurt him? We don’t know, we are never told.

Yes, Rian had a huge hard-on for Kylo and it’s pretty obvious because the rest of the characters suffer for it. Rey has her character ruined for a man, we don’t get enough time with Poe and Finn and what little time we get with Luke is ruined due to poor writing. If Rian could have stopped worshiping Kylo for two seconds, he could have managed to make a semi-decent film but instead, we’re stuck with an Emo Wankfest.

[Yavuz]

You say that the trope of "I can save him" is an old one that needs to die, but that's literally Luke's goal in Return of the Jedi. He's fought against Darth Vader, someone who was steeped in evil for far longer than Kylo Ren ever was, someone who mutilated Luke and froze Han in carbonite, who blew up Leia's planet while Leia watched. And yet Luke saw something good in Vader and tried to bring it out. It doesn't excuse what Vader did, it doesn't make it retroactively less terrible, it just means that there was more than one dimension to him, and that's perfectly fine. And Rian Johnson didn't try to humanize all of the space Nazis. Hux was still just the fucking worst, Phasma was still a sociopath.

As for Luke's portions, I don't think his character was ruined. I think it was perfectly reasonable for him to be conflicted about the Jedi path after he failed with Kylo Ren and saw his other students either murdered or turned to the dark side. (Quite frankly, there are a lot of reasons to doubt that the Jedi actually have the right way of thinking.) But Rey comes in to help him see that it's not all lost, that there is still hope, and he sacrifices himself to keep that hope alive. It's a very good story, IMO, and I can't think of a decent alternative story where he's not at least a bit upset about what happened, where he's not doubting himself at least a bit.

[Kaleidoscope]

No, for women

Rey trying to save Kylo is an example of a woman taking it on herself to save a man. The man does no work, it’s the woman’s job. And that, is an extremely sexist, old trope that has to die. Rey owes Kylo NOTHING. Again, Kylo just killed Han and hurt Finn. She has zero reasons to suddenly want to save him. She doesn’t have enough time to think it over. People don’t work that way and again, Rey owes Kylo nothing. For her to want to suddenly save him out of nowhere is extremely bad writing.

And the thing about trying to humanize Kylo is it doesn’t work because we still know nothing about him. Let’s look at the character of Erik Killmonger from Black Panther. The reason we can sympathize with Erik is because he came from the streets, had to deal with the death of his father and feels like Wakanda abandoned him. He also makes a great point: Wakanda has all these resources to help other black people yet they hide. While he goes about trying to help his people the wrong way, we understand where he’s coming from. His motivations make sense and once we learn about his backstory, we sympathize with him

Rian did none of that with Kylo Ren. That’s the problem. You can’t try to make us sympathize with a character who has been awful. At this point, Kylo has done a single thing to make us want to sympathize with him. Wanting to make him relatable doesn’t work unless we see something good in him and at this point, we haven’t. It comes off as Rian just wanting to focus on Kylo because he thinks Kylo is cool and that is a sign of extremely bad writing. And even if Hux and Phasma are still terrible people, Kylo himself is still a Nazi. Rian wanted to make a Nazi stand-in relatable without having the character look at his actions and feel responsible. You can’t do that. Again, it’s bad writing.

The Force Awakens introduced to us two Rey, Finn and Poe. Those three characters are supposed to be our new trio and they have they have the most to offer in terms of story. A ton of things were set up but instead of following through, Rian Johnson did his own thing and the movie ended hurting because of it. Had Johnson wanted to try to make Kylo sympathetic or relatable, he should have explained why Kylo turned to the dark side or give us a tragic backstory so we could understand. Instead, Kylo just comes off as overly dramatic and the other characters are sacrificed in order for Kylo to have the spotlight. There is zero reason for that.

[Nikaer Drekin]

There was literally no more reason, apart from vague familial ties that have never really meant anything to him, for Luke to save Darth Vader, either. I mean, we have the prequels now, we know why Anakin Skywalker fell to the dark side, but in the context of the original trilogy he was more or less a total unknown. Luke fought to save him because he saw the good in him, he saw the glimmer of light buried deep within him that could be saved. And, you know, because turning one of the most evil, powerful figures in the Empire to the light would more or less mean the Empire is over. Rey sees the same conflict, the same pull towards the light in Kylo that Luke saw in Vader. She's not trying to save him because he's a confused man who needs a woman to straighten him out, it's because she knows that this kind of redemption is possible and is worth fighting for. Luke is living proof of that, and if she accomplishes with Kylo Ren what Luke did with Vader, the war is over. The First Order crumbles, and her friends are safe.

One crucial detail I loved in the film is the way Rey refers to him over the course of her training. At the start, without exception, she calls him "Kylo," but once she gains some insight into his personality and learns more about what made him who he is, she realizes his humanity- she refers to him as "Ben" from then on. And, while it might not be the most tragic backstory possible, I'd imagine believing that your uncle, the living embodiment of goodness and redemption in the galaxy, tried to murder you in your sleep would fuck up a person pretty badly.

[Kaleidoscope]

But it doesn’t fit!

Again, Rey saw Kylo hurt her friends and murder someone just a day ago. Had she been given a year or two, it would make sense for her to suddenly want to help Kylo but it comes out of nowhere and makes Rey look like a flake. People don’t work that way. Rey should be angry and for her to just suddenly want to help Kylo doesn’t fit. It comes out of left field and it feels awkward.

As for Luke having one moment of weakness, that doesn’t really excuse Kylo’s actions at all. Kylo then goes to slaughter the other students, many who were children, and goes on to kill many other people. Again, if you want us to feel bad for him, you have to give us a good reason. Luke admits he regretted trying to hurt Kylo and the moment passed. We need to see what else shaped Kylo to turn to the dark side. Did he suffer abuse, was he tormented, what else was there?

Kylo is one of the weakest aspects of this new trilogy. He’s not threatening and if we’re supposed to sympathize with him, we can’t because there isn’t a reason to yet. Rey is an orphanage who waited for her family to come get her, only to realize they were never coming back. That makes her relatable and we feel for her. Finn was kidnapped as a child and raised to be a killing machine. That’s a backstory we can sympathize with. Kylo? All we know is that his uncle had a moment of weakness, one he regretted and Kylo went off to kill children. That doesn’t make him sympathetic in the least.

Another issue is that we have Poe and Finn. They’re both interesting characters yet we still don’t know much about them. TLJ could have been the movie to help flesh their characters out but again, we have to focus on the white main pain of our villain. To make matters worse, Poe’s character gets ruined and Finn gets no growth along with a pointless side story that adds nothing to the plot. Rian could have given Poe and Finn some growth while trying to flesh out Kylo but he failed fantastically at that.

[Moose]

And, while it might not be the most tragic backstory possible, I'd imagine believing that your uncle, the living embodiment of goodness and redemption in the galaxy, tried to murder you in your sleep would fuck up a person pretty badly.

yep, this, also Snoke being around and manipulating the hell out of Kylo didn't help much.

i can see how Rey trying to get through to Kylo can come off as "woman tries to save man from his stupid fucking self yet again," but like Nikaer said, Luke did this with his own father. both Luke and Rey sensed conflict in Anakin/Vader and Ben/Kylo, which suggested a possibility for redirection; it's not surprising that they would try to guide somebody back to the Light when they see that person still has some sliver of humanity in them, however small.

i don't think Kylo should be excused for anything he did, but he's definitely been through some shit and i don't blame Rey at all for wanting to try and get him on the right path. personally i didn't view it as a gender thing as much as a "look, i've got trauma too, the world sucks, let me help you."

[Kaleidoscope]

My issue is that it could have done better. Instead of having the movie take right after TFA, having Rey wanting to help Kylo would fit. Having her suddenly, out of nowhere, want to help Kylo doesn’t make any sense. What she knows about him is that he’s a cold blooded killer, he’s hurt her friends and she has no reason to trust him. This ‘There is light in’ comes out of left field. It would have made more sense to have Rey grow, study with Luke and learn more about Kylo. But just having her want to save the murdering fascist who tried to kill her and her new family just doesn’t make sense. That is why it comes off as ‘I can fix him’ nonsense.

My problem with Kylo is mainly people are clamoring for a redemption arc and he’s not there yet. I’m not saying Kylo can’t redeem himself but it seems like he is hellbent on being the next Supreme Leader. He also doesn’t want to be saved at this point and with just one more movie coming up, I don’t think he can unless JJ decides to split episode 9 into two movies. That is my major issue. Kylo has done anything to make us want for him to be saved and I am not against a redemption arc but it has to be earned. At this point, Kylo has hurt all the heroes within the new saga so he would have a long way to go before he’s even closed to being redeemable. And Johnson did not do a good job of trying to make Kylo relatable in anyway.

[Nikaer Drekin]

i don't think Kylo should be excused for anything he did, but he's definitely been through some shit and i don't blame Rey at all for wanting to try and get him on the right path. personally i didn't view it as a gender thing as much as a "look, i've got trauma too, the world sucks, let me help you."

Right, they've both got serious abandonment/trust issues, which allows for them to gain some basic understanding of each other. Their initial trauma isn't so different, but they dealt with it in vastly different ways- Rey by forming friendships with Han and Finn/helping the Resistance, and Ben by trying to lose his insecurities in the influence of Snoke. Kylo's method pushed his issues away, only making them grow and fester, while Rey has actually made some progress in overcoming her own anxieties.

Another issue is that we have Poe and Finn. They’re both interesting characters yet we still don’t know much about them. TLJ could have been the movie to help flesh their characters out but again, we have to focus on the white main pain of our villain. To make matters worse, Poe’s character gets ruined and Finn gets no growth along with a pointless side story that adds nothing to the plot. Rian could have given Poe and Finn some growth while trying to flesh out Kylo but he failed fantastically at that.

Okay, now I straight-up don't know what movie you watched. Poe's character in The Force Awakens was paper-thin! He was a devoted rebel who was a good pilot, and that's it. That's the extent of who he was as a person. TLJ gives him an actual flaw (well-intentioned arrogance) and forces him to come to terms with his place in the power structure of the Resistance. His conflicts with Leia and Holdo force him to become a wiser, more thoughtful leader who trusts his instincts while keeping the broader picture in mind, something he's clearly unable to do at the start of the film.

Finn's plot in the film might seems like a pointless side-story, but it's actually about him figuring out what kind of man he's going to become now that he's outside the influence of the First Order. Even though he's broken from their grip, in some ways he still thinks like a stormtrooper; he craves vengeance and the destruction of the First Order. The Last Jedi forces Finn to make a choice. He's tempted by, and rejects, the nihilism of DJ, and doing so is forced to deal with his own desire to escape to safety. From Rose, he learns what being a rebel is all about. It isn't just eradicating evil, it's "protecting what we love"- acting as a force for good in the galaxy. Compare the way he acts at the beginning of the movie to the end. At the start, he's willing to jump ship and leave the Resistance behind in order to save himself and Rey. By the end, he chooses to stay with the Resistance on Crait, even if it means dying with them. He knows that a good cause is worth sticking by to the end.

If that's not character growth, I don't know what is.

[Kaleidoscope]

It’s obvious we’re just going to go in circles with this conversation so I’m just going to say my last piece and be done with it.

TLJ is a weak film. It’s dull, it drags, the characters have little to no development, the new characters that are added are pointless and the established characters we love are ruined. I hated TLJ and so far, it’s my least favorite Star Wars film. I am thankful that Rian Johnson isn’t going to direct the next movie and I cannot wait for JJ to come back to fix the mess he made.

[EYE OF ZA]

JJ Abrams, a director noted for cleaning up messes and concluding series on a satisfying high note.

[Yavuz]

I would say that, for myself, some of the best parts of the broader Star Wars universe have been stories where you see the world through the POV of the bad folks. Kieron Gillen's Darth Vader series, James Luceno's Tarkin, Timothy Zahn's Thrawn books. You get to see that, oh wait, maybe they're not just cartoony mustache-twirling villains, they have motivations that make sense in their own heads. And that makes them better characters, even if it doesn't make them better people. No one aside from juvenile edgelords gets up in the morning and thinks "fuck yeah im gonna go do evil shit", and I think good fiction should reflect that, even as it shows why the villains are the villains.

[Kaleidoscope]

Okay, last time I'll post here. Here's a good article that sums up some of my issues with the latest SW movie.

[Nikaer Drekin]

There are a lot of issues I have with this piece, but I'm just going to focus on the Poe Dameron paragraph for the moment.

Part of diversity is actively putting your characters of color in impactful roles and allowing them to live as most white leads do.

Okay, yes, this is absolutely true.

Poe Dameron is also changed from the responsible and caring person he was in The Force Awakens to a reckless, disobedient, and glory-obsessed pilot. It’s very upsetting to turn one of the Latinx characters of Star Wars into a Latinx stereotype.

Poe had like three minutes of screen time in The Force Awakens, so we very well might just not gotten a full picture of him as a character. Also, I'm not sure when he's "glory-obsessed," even at his most reckless Poe is definitely in it for the sake of the Resistance, even if his perspective is misguided. And you'd have to think extremely broadly to consider those traits Latinx stereotypes, at least the way they're utilized in the movie.

Poe is forced to deal with his new leader, Admiral Holdo, who he has a right to question, as she denies any of the Resistance information about her plan.

When does Holdo deny "any of the Resistance" information about her plan? She shuts Poe out of the planning process, and I'd say she's pretty justified in doing so, since he just ignored orders from his general and flew a mission that got their whole bombing squadron killed. She clearly confers with other officers about the plan, just not Poe.

Once again, the narrative slams down on Poe, as he later gets punished by getting shot unconscious by General Organa, followed by Leia and Holdo saying how they “like” him despite how they’ve treated him.

HE LITERALLY COMMITTED MUTINY!! Even though he thought he was doing the right thing, he still held his commanding officer hostage and put the fleet at risk. Leia and Holdo must like him, because that's about the mildest punishment you could hope for in that situation.

Leia’s “follow him” line on Crait is too little, too late, as The Last Jedi gave Poe, Finn, Rose, and Paige the backseat in terms of story treatment.

That line is Leia recognizing that Poe has grown as a leader and a person, because he realized that the attack on the cannon wasn't working and ordered a retreat to protect those under his command. He made mistakes and learned from them. This is the exact opposite of putting a character in "the backseat," and why the first sentence in this paragraph feels somewhat hollow for me. The Last Jedi puts Poe in a way, way more central and meaningful position than The Force Awakens ever did. It allowed him to make tough decisions and develop as a character, but this writer doesn't seem to like it because he faces (completely reasonable) consequences for his decisions. But that's what well-rounded characters do! That's giving characters of color the same agency white characters have, not to mention good writing in general.

E: Okay, just two more:

Rose is left in a state of limbo at the film’s conclusion, and it’s implied that there might be a competition between her and Rey for Finn’s attention, because how feminist is it to have two women fighting over a man, right?

Did anyone else see the way Rey looked at Poe when she met him? I think Finn and Rose are going to be just fine.

Rey herself has no major role in the final battle other than rescuing the Resistance.

Yeah, she does nothing, except saving everyone's lives. So lazy, Rey. Get it together.

[Yavuz]

I'd also like to take issue with a few things here.

Rian Johnson himself stated in his interview with the LA Times, “So I knew I wanted them to talk, and to talk enough to where we could go from “I hate you,” to her being forced to actually engage with him.“ In our current times, it’s disturbing how our female lead is expected to excuse a threatening and violent white man just because of his tragic backstory.

She's not expected to excuse him, and ultimately, she doesn't excuse him. She just has to engage with him, to reckon with the question of how the son of two great heroes went wrong. Why is suggesting that there might be more than just "arglebargle evil" to Kylo Ren a bad thing? Also, did they forget the part in The Force Awakens where he was clearly conflicted? Putting nuance into a character does not mean you have to agree with them.

After Rey’s parentage reveal, Kylo tells her, “You have no place in this story.”

Yes, because he's a fucking asshole darksider. He's wrong. Rey absolutely has a place in the story, and, incidentally, it's 100 percent fine that she isn't Obi-Wan's granddaughter or Ben/Kylo's twin or whatever. Not everything needs to be connected to the previous films.

Even when Finn tries to do the right thing, the narrative slaps—or, unfortunately, tases—him for it. When he tries to get Rey’s beacon away from the First Order so she won’t be falling into a trap, Rose Tico calls him a traitor, tases him, and spends an entire storyline teaching him not to be selfish—because clearly choosing to spare innocents’ lives and going back for Rey were not selfless enough? Finn is forced to go on a downgraded version of his Force Awakens arc. The meaningless Canto Bight plot is regarded by even fans of the film as the weakest link, and it’s upsetting because Finn and Rose deserve better.

Let's take this piece by piece. The reason Rose tases him is that she thinks he's deserting and it's her job to tase people who are deserting. I would also say that his loyalty to the Resistance is not necessarily clear at this point, given that he left the First Order so recently (as the author pointed out previously, it's only been a few days, in-universe, since the events of The Force Awakens), and even after he left it, he tried to just flee the First Order. Rose is trying to show Finn (who, lest we forget, wasn't just a child soldier - the First Order is all he ever knew) that there's better reasons to fight the First Order than just "I hate them" or "I fear them". I also liked the way that the Canto Bight plot brought some moral ambiguity into the plot, suggesting that maybe all of this war in general is not a good thing, and maybe the Resistance isn't all sweetness and light.